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パート１
＜Transcript＞
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DEEPAK CHOPRA
I think man has eternally been obsessed with wanting to know where we
come from, what is the meaning of this soap opera we participate in,
and what happens after we die.
THOMAS MOORE
That's part of the problem in the modern world I think. We are
trying so hard, striving so hard to be ambitious, to be independent
and powerful. When people talk about being empowered it concerns me
because I don't think we are going to find this soul power, this deep
seeded power in an effort to balance the control issues with people.
That's striving too hard and I think in fact, there is a paradox at
work. We would probably feel more power in our lives the more we
could give it up.
STEPHEN COVEY
The greatest battles of life that we ever fight are usually fought in
the silent chambers of our own soul, and usually daily.
BERNIE SIEGEL
That's what I try to get across to people. How you beat life and it's
pain is not by living forever or accumulating a lot of money, but how
you confront challenges and adversity. That's what we're talking
about. If you ask the world is life fair the majority say no. Life
is not fair. My concept is that life is totally fair, because
everyone complains. But it's difficult. That's a different
statement.
MARIANNE WILLIAMSON
This question of "How do we do it? How do we do it? How do we do it?
is a completely bogus one at this point. And for most people it is a
completely hypocritical one. They've been to enough lectures and
they've read enough books, they know, but they keep asking why
because they're trying to avoid the actual practice. I heard
somewhere...a quote from Pascal` "All of mans' problems stem from
his inability to sit quietly in a room alone".
DAVID WHYTE
The mytho-poetic tradition says that you do not do the work of
finding out what your destiny is, or finding out what you pattern and
your desires are in the world. You give yourself over to the world
through a tremendous amount of attention, whatever attention you
can give. You give that. And the world comes to light to such an
extent that it actually comes back and finds you.
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パート２
＜Transcript＞
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WILLIAMSON
Anthropologists have found that cultures began inventing religions
for themselves at the same time they began creating pieces of art; in
other words the desire for transcendence is intimately connected with
the desire for creativity. It is just as essential to who and what we
are. So forever mankind has been seeking a way. When I say we have
been inventing religions, that doesn't mean we invent the religious
experience. We give expression to the religious experience. So
obviously from the beginning of time we have been searching for
this. So the answer to the question is "no" I do not think our
hunger today is any different today than it ever was. I think it's
probably a greater hunger, though because in this century,
particularly we live in a world so alienated from the sacred
experience.
COVEY
I think what's going on today is deep pain. P.A.I.N. And it's
everywhere. And that at the forefront of much of that pain is just
the need for survival. And the world has changed it's logic system,
we have a new standard, we have a new bar. The global economy has
opened up…everything. And the bar of quality has gone higher and
higher. And you can't fake quality. It has to come out of high
trust cultures. And you can't fake high trust cultures any more than
you can talk yourself out of problems that you've behaved yourself
into. It has to come from real deep trustworthiness. There's no
other way.
CHOPRA
Hysteria is the dominant theme of our society today. It's the fear
of change and yet the fact is that change is the most dominant theme
of our civilization. We have more change in one decade than we have
in centuries in previous times. And people find that this rapid
change leads to unpredictability in their lives. And this lack of
predictability, lack of control, lack of outlets for frustration,
this leads to the anxiety and the angst that you see in our culture
today.
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パート３
＜Transcript＞
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SIEGEL
If you say can someone change your life. My statement is yes. Most
of us need to hurt in order to change. Not because somebody
suggested but we say we're in pain. I don't like it. I would say
Maybe I'll change. And I would say maybe. But If someone comes to me
with a complaint about their life, I say change your life. If they
say how do I change my life, I'm stuck in a job, or my insurance, and
I say if you don't like it and you can't change it. Then change your
attitude towards life. So if someone is miserable that's them, and
their responsibility and their participation and their choice. I
don't care again whether you're in prison, or you have parts of your
body missing or you have an illness. If you want to be happy, then
choose happiness. That may sound like an absurd statement. But
talk to survivors of concentration camps and a whole host of others
things. They are talking about their choice. And that's what we
have. Ultimately only one choice. My feelings, my attitude, my
mood. If I want to be miserable. I can be miserable. That's very
easy. And I don't have to change my wife, I don't change my
children, I don't have to change my job. I can just choose to be
miserable . And on the other hand I can keep all those things and
wake up every day and say I'm choosing happiness. There's a very
simple statement I read the other day, "if you're here to contribute
love you'll find happiness. If you're here to get something....you
will always be suffering because you never get enough." And I meet
people angry when they die because they never got enough and they
were so nice to everyone...then I could have said to them don't be so
nice to everyone...it's okay to ask for your needs.
WILLIAMSON
The purpose of our lives and the high which we seek is not to be
found from the material but rather from something inside ourselves
that we give birth to. In other words the love in our hearts, the
compassion, that is what is the high we seek. It's the experience
of that love. And ultimately we come to realize that nothing in this
world can give it to us. It can give us pleasure but it can not
bring us ultimately the joy that we seek.
WHYTE
I think there's a longing right now for the soul and for
understanding what it means to live out your own pattern. Each of
us has a pattern. Now there is a pattern in the world, the greater
world that our pattern somehow fits exquisitely. That I as an
individual have my own way in the world and there's a way of fitting
and we're tired of not fitting in a way. Many of our organizations
are, our countries are, our institutions, our marriages, just
aren't large enough to us anyway, anymore. They just aren't large
enough to hold us anymore. And so…there’s a way no matter how
large an organization, no matter how vast, it's not vast enough to
hold even one single human soul and I feel like we are all
recognizing that now and we all want our lives back now from our
institutions, our organizations, our relationships. Not in a
selfish way but in a greater self way. In a way which you feel you
are able to give your gifts and they are not constantly being
stifled all the time. And it just seems to be in the air these
days, it seems to be the zeitgeist of our time, that we've actually
come to a threshold where we feel it's possible to actually do that.
COVEY
Most people think in terms of quick fix changes. You know, they want
something now so they get hung up on some particular idea or fad.
It's kinda like cotton candy...that you taste and it tastes good, but
then it evaporates, it doesn't seem to have any substance that has
enduring and permanent value. I think that people's minds are too
focused upon a quick fix, too focused on what's the answer, they're
not willing to pay the price in deep introspection and reflection in
really confronting the deeper issues and questions of their lives.
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パート４
＜Transcript＞
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WILLIAMSON
I lived in Hollywood for a long time and there was this myth and I
don't know if it's true or not, and I think it was Lana Turner, the
American actress was discovered sitting in a drug store or something
like that. And a lot of us grow up with this idea, that's what's
going to happen to us, that we're going to be discovered. And I
think maturity includes the recognition that nobody is going to see
anything in us that we don't see in ourselves. Stop waiting for a
producer, produce yourself. Because if you have this idea that
someone's going to give you the chance to show what I can do, then
what that implies to me is that you won't have been practicing. So
even when you could have the chance and the lights on you, what will
you do. I think you have to practice being the person that you know
you can be, even no people are looking, because the universe is
always looking.
COVEY
We see what we seek. The ultimate purpose, the ultimate motive that
you are trying to serve will affect how you see life, and how you see
life will affect your whole response to life. It's called a
paradigm, your view of reality. But our view of reality is shaped
primarily by our deeper motivations, our deeper desires. What is it
we're really about. Someone said, when man found the mirror he began
to lose his soul. The point is he became more concerned with his
image than with his self. We don't in a sense invent, we detect our
sense of meaning, we don't discover it, we uncover it. It's in us
already. And everyone has unique gifts, and unique capabilities and
they are also in very unique need situations and it's the marriage
between those gifts and those needs that represents the contribution,
the service potential. So you have to look outside but you also have
to examine your own heart because that's where you'll find the
motherlode is.
MOORE
It's funny isn't it, it's so difficult to love ourselves. , I think
that maybe the problem there is the word self. That's why I like the
word soul. It may be possible or easier to love the soul rather than
oneself. Maybe there is something about the idea of, the very idea
of looking of at one's self and paying so much attention to one's
self, it is revolting and it is difficult, and maybe it should be.
Because that it’s not the way to be in this world to be
introspective …I think …to just be always be gazing at oneself and
trying to work on the self. Again the traditional teachings from
all over the world say that if you, if you lose yourself you will
gain it. If you lose your soul in a sense you'll gain it, in a
way. I mean, lose yourself certainly. And this loss of self
consciousness , and I think in our terms today of trying to improve
the self, which is what we are doing most of the time. If we can
lose that and discover maybe that it is narcissistic. That means
neurotic. You know narcissistic. That means we have lost the
touch of the soul. We have substituted self for soul. That's
almost a definition of narcissism.
Now soul is something bigger, broader, reaches out to the world
around us and the people around us. And it's not a looking at
one's self in a reflexive self contained way, its rather looking,
discovering that one's self is out there. That who I am is in my
relationships and in my family and in the work I do, I see myself in
the work that I do and that is not narcissistic. That is looking,
finding oneself outside of oneself. And then we have a chance I
think to love oneself. We can love our soul because we see it as
separate from ourselves.
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パート５
＜Transcript＞
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SIEGEL
Most people say things like "some day my day will come", and when
they realize they have a limited number of days that is when they
really get into action. We don't live lives we live roles. More
people die on Monday morning, and have heart attacks on Monday
morning , commit suicide on Monday morning. So we don't like what we
are doing - then as one woman said " My disease gave me
permission". So I can read letter after letter from people saying
things like "I took time to smell the roses", " Oh you know I really
put in a rose garden." And these were people who were expecting to
die who didn't. Now we all die - but so many people have never
lived, and I think that's why the disease becomes a gift. That they
really begin to live their life. And as one man said "there is this
stupid cliche, 'time is money', " he said, "time isn't money, time is
everything." And so when you see a limited amount of time you begin
as he said, to spend more time with the things and people you love.
If you are reading a page in a book and it isn't important you skip
it. And you really begin to focus on that. And at the same time as
I said, people will straighten out relationships, quit jobs, move
from where they didn't want to live in the first place and then
wonder why something nice happened to them physically as well.
WILLIAMSON
Life is not so much about making ourselves better as it is about
relinquishing all the illusions and the blocks to our greatness that
are bred into us in this world. If you go to a pre-school or a
kindergarten or an elementary school, you can see the obvious
capacity for greatness in children, and you can see how our systems,
educational and social dampen children’s spirit. I mean the irony
is we think kids go to school to become great. We send them to
school so the system can just beat it out of them. And we've got to
get out of that denial. We've got to stop that hypocrisy, and admit
to ourselves that that's what we do. If we were more concerned
about keeping children centered in their joy and less concerned about
making them learn geography. If we were more concerned about
teaching children to love, to live in compassion. The world isn't
falling apart because children don't know how to spell. The world's
falling apart because adults are thinking for themselves, and I think
that has less to do with spelling. Which is not to say that
spelling's not important, less to do with what we say education is
about, and more to do with the fact that people are just so
internally bound. So internally un-free. And when that spirit is
suppressed, there's no genius. So it's not that some people are
geniuses. Oh God, I heard a line. It was Buckminister Fuller, it
was like something like "geniuses are just people who had good
mothers." I love that, and he would know.
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パート６
＜Transcript＞
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CHOPRA
So I think that one has to learn the appreciation of the roles one's
playing. In many times in western societies, the ego is in fact,
confused for self esteem. People have an extremely poor self esteem,
that they have a very low opinion of themselves because they have
never experienced that part of themselves that is immune to
criticism, that is un-fearful of any challenge, that feels beneath no
one and yet has love and simplicity inside it. There is a lot of
confusion about self esteem and self ego in western societies for the
simple reason that the whole domain of psychology and behavioral
sciences has lacked an essential component, and that is
spirituality. Without a spiritual experience you can never have true
self esteem because you don't even know what the self is. You are
confusing it with the ego.
COVEY
People escape into different psychological fads of self esteem. They
are ignoring the fundamental roots of the problem. For every
thousand hacking at the leaves of evil, there is one striking at the
root. I mean imagine a person who is duplicitous, inwardly torn and
deceitful, learning positive mental attitudes and better ways to
dress, and better ways to present oneself, and to manipulate other
people toward your own ends, or to build self esteem through the
various social psychological theories that are very popular today.
But they're fundamentally duplicitous. It’s flawed. The same thing
with service.
The essence of happiness is that it is a by product. You never go
after it directly. It always is a by product of something you
contribute, that you give, that you make a difference, that you add
value, that you serve, you contribute in some way. And to me those
are the two missing ingredients of much not all, certainly not all,
but of much of the literature and the focus on how you get self
esteem, how you get happiness.
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パート７
＜Transcript＞
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SIEGEL
I always say the sickest group I see are the children of today. Go
into a high school or Junior high school and there is such low self
esteem and self worth. They are afraid to love. And if you ask them
why they say "Well, I could be rejected" That's where parenting
comes in. If you feel loved, you don't worry about rejection. You
go out and love the world. If somebody doesn't want your love, you
don't go home depressed. You say "They didn't want it". But you
have a sense of worth. Most of the children today are depending on
someone else to let them know they are okay. That's sad. And
therefore they don't risk loving. They are more likely to be
destructive than loving. But what I saw was that love, joy, again,
they're physiologic. I mean, if you spent 15 minutes laughing, do I
need to tell you laughter is good for you? How does your body feel?
If you play for a couple of hours and lose track of time, at the end
of that time, if someone reminded you that two hours went by and you
said: "Two hours! I thought it was five minutes." What's going on
in your body at that time. And to me, love is probably true
unconditional love that when you’re giving that love you're probably
at your healthiest of any of those states. And anybody who's ever
done volunteer work knows that. If you spent time working for
someone out of love and then at the end of the couple of hours of
that work, how do you feel? Wonderful. You go home elated. I
always compare because people when they relate to people...see, back
to animals again. A bird is brought into your house by one of your
children. It's been injured by a car and can't fly. So you take it
in, and you take care of it and a few weeks later it's capable of
flying and you teach it again and it flies off. Everyone in the
family is just standing there. It's just so wonderful to see this
bird fly again. You don't look for a card in the mailbox or you
don’t wait for a phone call saying "Thank you for helping our bird"
You know, you are rewarded by the act and I think that's what people
have to learn. That kind of act, that kind of love helps the person
as well as the recipient. And if you do studies, you’ll find that
people who volunteer do out of love live longer, healthier life.
WHYTE
A marvelous few lines by an ancient Chinese sage called Woo Wei.
He says, "why are you unhappy?" Why are you unhappy? He says
because 98.75 per cent of everything you say and all that you do is
for yourself and there isn't one. 98.75 per cent of everything you
do and all that you say is for yourself and there isn't one. When he
says there isn't one what he's meaning is that there is a much
greater self in the self we usually use to question the world and to
say what is my life? Then the self, the sense of soul actually
comes out of your relationship with the world.
It's not just you, by yourself figuring out what you are going to do
with your life. You are actually going to give yourself over to
something much greater, which is actually called life and that life
will come back and find you.
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パート８
＜Transcript-VOL1-７〜８ページ＞
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SIEGEL
My underlying statement is, life is a labor pain - if you use the
pain to give birth to yourself you are doing something worthwhile.
Most people who are going through pain - has nothing to do with
giving birth to themselves or living their life. It's what everyone
else wanted them to do. Joseph Campbell, the mythologist said he was
sitting in a restaurant one day listening to a father argue with his
boy, and the mother said 'let him do what he wants to do', and the
father said 'I have never done anything I wanted to do in my life.'
That's what we're talking about.
WILLIAMSON
I don't personally believe that there has to be pain in order to
experience the pleasure, by the way and many people do. Some
people....Carl Jung said "there's no coming to consciousness without
pain" but when I look at my daughter when I look at little children,
and the pleasure, the shear joy and glee. I never knew really…I
never truly knew in my heart the meaning of the word glee until I saw
a baby laugh, a toddler laugh and I don't think their joy is
dependent on their having been through pain. I think there's a
deepening of our gratitude for joy when we have no pain. I do think
that.
CHOPRA
You don't have to give up your pain, you should just give up your
suffering. Pain is a very normal component of life. Without pain
we wouldn't have the experience of pleasure. So you shouldn't even
attempt to give up your pain. Life is a flow between the riverbanks
of pain and pleasure. That's what makes experience one of
contrast. But when you get attached to your pain, then of course
that’s a different thing all together. That's called suffering.
MOORE
So if the symptom, the problem, the complaint is that I'm inferior,
that I feel inferior, we stay with that then maybe we have to explore
the possibility that we have to find a kind of inferiority that
doesn't hurt us, and doesn't undo us. We have to find, a more
soulful, you might say, inferiority. That may seem very odd,
especially in a world that hates inferiority. But let me tell you
what I mean. Inferiority, if we follow that through, could be a way
of the feeling of a follow through, could be a way of discovering our
lower, you might say, our lower humanity, which we all strive to be
so high all the time. We want to be educated so highly, we want to
know so much. And yet the myths, the great mythologies of the world
warn us against being too ambitious about knowledge, that we're
going to be destroyed if we strive too high and too far that way.
The mythologies and religions really tell us that it's important to
be inferior, to discover our foolishness, our ignorance. The mystics
talk about this all the time. So there is a kind of inferiority that
is not a literal destruction of oneself. Rather it is a lowering of
expectation, lowering of ambition, so that we live and discover the
value of things, like not knowing everything, of failing in so many
things, of getting sick now and then, of being emotionally unstable
now and then, all of these things. The various things that weaken
us, and bring along with them feelings of inferiority can be very
fruitful to the soul. More fruitful than the superior moments when
we think we know what we're doing and we're on the right track, and
we haven't failed, we've succeeded. Those could be even more
dangerous to soul.
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パート９
＜Transcript＞
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WHYTE
We have tremendous preconceived notions about the way life should
be. And much of our raising in life, you know by our parents and
organizations and the form of educational systems and things
reinforce it. Which is that I exist when everything is on the up
and up and I am growing and I am successful and I am doing well in
the world. And I don't exist when I'm fading away, when I am dying,
when I am failing. This is true both in the way others see us and
the way we see ourselves too. Its as if we will only agree that we
go out at night when the moon is growing larger for the first half of
the month and in the second half of the month we will not go out
because it is fading away. And we will certainly not go out for
those three nights of the month when there is no moon at all. Just
too frightening. I wrote a poem about faith, written when I had very
little faith. But I started and the first line was, 'I want to write
about actually called faith. I want to write about faith.' I was
just getting my foot in the door. I didn't know what I was going to
write about faith but I wanted to write about faith. I want to write
about faith. Then suddenly this interior image of the moon arose
inside me. I want to write about faith, about the way the moon
rises over cold snow night after night. Faithful even in its fading
from fullness. Faithful even in its fading from fullness. Slowly
becoming that last curving and impossible sliver of light before the
final darkness, but I have no faith myself. I do not give it the
smallest entry.
What I overheard myself saying in that poem was what would my life be
like if I had equal faith in the part of me that was fading away as
the part of me that was growing. That was actually a radical
question. That there is a way in which we feel as if when things are
going wrong, things are not going right, that I actually don't exist,
there's something wrong with me, therefore I have to do things to put
it right. Now if you look at the way life is and actually works half
of life is growing and becoming and half of life is dying and fading
away, and if we cut ourself off from the whole fading side of the
cycle, we actually cut ourself off from half of ourself.
COVEY
I don't know if I can put my finger on the most fundamental fear, but
I really believe that a common one is how well I stack up with
others, what my position is, where am I in the pecking order, how I
compare to other people. And it's a kind of ego need that's very
prideful. It feels very superior in some settings, and maybe
inferior in other settings, but when people grow up with this shame
based identity, or what I call comparison based identity, where often
shame or comparison's emotional rewards and punishments attached to
those comparisons. They gradually lose a sense of themself, and who
they are. Their own identity, their own soul, their own worth, their
own preciousness.
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パート１０
＜Transcript＞
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MOORE
The problem is ambition. We are so ambitious. Ambitious to do so
much and to know so much and to achieve. I think giving up those
ambitions is a way of letting go some of the anxiety that's
connected to them. What's the alternative, to just wallow in your
life, in your problems? No, it's not that. I use the word care
which is sort of half way between wallowing and being hyper-active.
Caring is active and yet there is a soft activity in it. So we have
to care for our lives all the time and not judge ourselves so much.
I think a lot of anxiety comes from judging ourselves, saying we
have to improve, we have to be different, we have to be like somebody
else.
We are so identified with the collective, we are so identified with
one group or another or the spirit of the times. This is especially
true of people in spiritual practice, very identified, very
collective. And these people can be extremely moralistic in their
own way, thinking that everyone should eat the same way, or they
should meditate or do this or that. But from the soul point of view
we trust the deep interior of the individual and that individuality
may appear in a horrible diet, in a horrible as compared to a purer
diet , in a horrible style of life that may seem terrible to somebody
else's. And I think that tolerating and allowing the individuality
to merge is the ultimate cure for anxiety. To really trust yourself,
to trust that whatever is coming up from there even though it's very
raw and you just want to act on everything, that it merges into
consciousness.
But whatever comes up it has value and validity, and that kind of
trust and intimacy with oneself is the base for living without
anxiety. That's how I would describe the openness that there is a
life living close to soul.
SIEGEL
And this is something I often say to people now, that if you don't
want to be a victim, when you run into things and you think you are
going to be a victim, but this is beyond you, what you do at that
moment ? Well, what you do with that moment is say a prayer, now the
prayer isn't God cure me, or God give me more money. It's God show
me. And this is nothing to do with religion; religion is a problem,
okay, for a lot of people, the rules that go with it. But you can
say God, my collective unconscious, my intuition, please help me,
show me the way, and then you have a dream, or you bump into somebody
you haven't seen in five years and they tell you something or you
suddenly have a thought, that's what begins to happen. This is in us,
this is resources. And what we need to do is just have faith in
ourselves and listen to this inner voice and it will guide you.
WHYTE
Part of the reason we have so much difficulty with these urges is our
fear of failure around them, that you could lose everything. If you
tried your life and it didn't work, where else would you go, you
see. Although the actual experience is very different. It is this
fear of failure, yet all the time, just as if…I mean I feel like the
universe is looking at us saying "Listen, fifteen billion years of
evolution and there is no other creature exactly like you anywhere in
the universe, all the world, there is no other human being who can
fail exactly in the way you can fail, no one has the artistic ability
to fail, to mess up, in the way you can mess up. No one can fall on
their face the way you can fall on your face. No one can fail like
you can fail. No other part of the world has the ability to fail in
the way you can fail and you are quibbling, quibbling between success
and failure.
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成功の秘密１：大きな夢を抱く
